Inun-D&D-ated
Posted November 8th, 2006 by Howard TaylerThanks for all the cool links, everybody. Not only have you pounded on the previous thread with great information, some of you have also emailed me assorted goodies. It is interesting to note that I’ve also not received even a SINGLE anti-RPG/anti-D&D flame. Apparently the gravitics of Schlockiverse technology allow me to fly under the radar of The Evil Legion of Attack Ministries™. (I’ll just drop this payload and be on my way…)
If you’ve emailed me, you may get a personalized response, but you also might not. Let me say, however, that pretty much ALL the email I have gotten on the subject was useful (yes, even yours. Don’t be so humble. It was brilliant.)
I will be compiling a link-list and making it permanently available on this site. I’ll also write a little essay of my own on the subject. These things may have to wait a little while, though, because books are due to arrive Any Day Now, and when they do I’ll be suddenly, suddenly busy.
Which reminds me: pre-orders will be closing sometime on Tuesday, November 14th. If you want your book to ship before Thanksgiving (that Great American Celebration of Plenitude, Omnivorism, and Excess), please place your order now. Operators Web-servers are standing by.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
Mr. Tayler, I’m confused.
Why would you be getting anti-RPG flames on a WEBCOMIC? Not just any ole webcomic, but a HARD SF WEBCOMIC. One with boomies and ominous hummmmms.
There’s too much awesome here for rabid attack ministries to show up.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Oh, you’d be surprised who reads this, oh yes you would.
November 8th, 2006 at 10:26 pm
Oldy but goody…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vChEPj0dXXk
Yes, D&D is harmful… just not the way the mainstream thinks.
November 9th, 2006 at 6:46 am
… drat … oh, my, “I’m getting drunk.”
November 9th, 2006 at 9:50 am
I’ll tell you why I stopped playing D&D, but I hope you won’t consider it a flame. I was an avid gamer all through my youth, (20+ years ago) even past college. I painted miniatures with a one-hair brush and developed my on campaigns from scratch. I had great times with good friends; nothing weird, no chanting or long robes and candles or other stereotypical non-gamer impressions of gaming crap. No one invited me to a coven or a satanic ritual or other cultic nonsense. I gave my life to Jesus several years out of college and still kept my stuff, even though I didn’t play much. I didn’t really believe in the stuff in the games, didn’t roleplay cleric interactions with deities or imitate arcane rituals, so it was ok, right? I was explaining to my wife one night why it was ok, explaining that as a player, you were just creating an imaginary world with different rules, and ended up rationalizing the coexistence of faith and gaming with the statement: “its just pretending that God doesn’t exist.” When that came out of my mouth it hit me like a ton of bricks. Why would I ever want to do that? I realized then that life was full of actual adventure, there really are evil spiritual forces at work in the real world, and the Holy Spirit gives me more real power than any natural 18 stat across the board pretend person ever could. That is when I stopped playing and got rid of my stuff. I don’t condemn you if you play, I just think that you should stop and think about it. God bless you.
November 9th, 2006 at 9:51 am
By the way, your comic rocks. :)
November 9th, 2006 at 10:36 am
mc whitebread: I can see how finding yourself “pretending that God doesn’t exist” would be a little shocking. And I’ll lead off by saying that RPGs aren’t for everybody, but just because they’re not for you, and you’re a Good Christian, doesn’t mean they’re not for Good Christians.
Let me draw a parallel: I have created a universe in which I have to pretend, at least for a while, that IF God and Jesus and the Devil exist, they do so very differently from the way the Bible teaches (or at least from the way it is interpreted). The Schlockiverse appears to be, in most regards, a classic SF universe in which secular wisdom holds sway, and religion is more a social science than anything else. Faith in the Schlockiverse becomes a very powerful metaphor for “evidence of things hoped for” in THIS life, since I’m not about to draw God appearing to the Reverend and telling him what to do.
Unless, of course, by “God” you mean “Petey,” who can be interpreted as yet ANOTHER metaphor. More than a few Christians have emailed me to thank me for the succinct and subtle manner in which covered some key elements of Western Theology.
Coming back to the point at hand, I make my living by pretending things exist when they don’t, and pretending they don’t when they do. And your second comment seems to say that you’re enjoying reading it.
Now I’m not accusing you of hypocrisy — no, I’m saying that I HAVE stopped to “think about it,” and am discovering (as I believe C.S. Lewis discovered) that while truth may be both stranger and more wonderful than fiction, fiction has its place, and in the right hands is a powerful tool for good.
Role-playing is the same way. By immersing yourself in a fantasy world in which the rules of this one no longer hold sway, you can teach lessons in morality (and strategy, tactics, social interaction, mathematics, probability, and language comprehension) without allowing yourself to fall back on the comfortable “pat” Sunday-school answers.
Can you escape into a world in which rape, murder, and thieving are now okay with you, and live out dark fantasies which may begin to color your real-world actions? Well, yeah. Good Christians probably shouldn’t play ANY game that way.
November 9th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Great response. I’m glad that you didn’t take my post as an indictment of any Christian who plays RPGs, because it wasn’t. Too many Christians play “Junior Holy Spirit” by telling people what they can or can’t do, because it is “ungodly”. I just wanted to tell about my journey out of that arena, and how it wasn’t a knee-jerk response to some svengali televangelist. I love C.S. Lewis, precisely because of the very strong allegorical themes, something most games and sci-fi do not share.
I do agree that there are many benefits for creative roleplaying, I have played too much to think otherwise. I also recognize that for many games, there are references to occultic or pagan symbols, mythology, and practices, and that these are presented in a context that is absent any scriptural discernment. That is the primary difficulty for me. In “The Silver Chair”, Eustace and Jill are pondering how to get to Aslan’s country and Jill suggests that they cast some kind of spell. Eustace rejects that idea outright — no pentacles, or inscriptions, or chanting, or such, saying that it might seem like they were trying to control Aslan.
When I got saved, my music was a battleground for me. I gave up everything secular that I owned. But this was a personal battle. I think that some standards are universal (Christians should not listen to obscene/blasphemous music for “entertainment”), but in that area not covered by an explicit scriptural reference, God will give you direction. I have a friend who is a lead singer for a great band (Not Called Common) who has a collection of over 10000 CDs. I don’t condemn him for his collection; that is an area for him of personal knowledge and expertise in music. Lesson: God will speak to your heart about things that get in the way of His place in your heart.
Anyway, I kind of rambled on a bit there but I wanted to give a little more context to my initial response to the thread.
November 9th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
These were three truly excellent comments in a row. This is an area I’ve wanted to see some comment from Howard for a while, but I couldn’t think of non-flame way to ask.
November 9th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Yay for non-flamage?
November 9th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
mc whitebread: We could segway into the whole “electric guitars are from the devil” thread on that note.
I whole heartedly recommend ApologetiX (www.apologetix.com) which is a Christian parody band. They basically are similar to Weird Al, except they change the words to Chrisitan lyrics.
I recently promoted a concert for them at my church (www.lighthousebaptistchurch.org) that was very well received. After the concert. even the most hard core anti-booty shakers admitted that it was a great idea.
November 9th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
mc whitebread:
I’m a gamer, a game-master, and a Christian (though not evangelical). Over the years, I’ve found gaming has helped me understand my faith, and the world around me. Primarily, this is because in order to build realistic worlds I need to address issues that don’t normally arise in real life. Or to simulate changes that I can’t make in real life that help illuminate or explore issues of faith.
I’ll admit, with my current group, I’ll probably never play Testament (a roleplaying game set in Biblical (primarily Old Testament) times). But that’s because I’ve got some very secular people in it (and sad to say, some who have been burned by misbehaving Christians), and it’d make them too uncomfortable. But I’ve had a number of *very* good discussions with some of those same players about these issues after the game.
Strangely enough, a lot of the imagery in standard D&D has strong Christian overtones. The Nine Hells, for instance, are directly modeled on Dante’s Inferno, while the original cleric draws directly from the medieval fighting priests.
Ultimately, for me, gaming offers just the inverse of what drove you away “What if people couldn’t deny the existence of God?”. Even that black-and-white morality serves the exploration of faith – “What if people could directly test how close you were to God?”
Unfortunately, it’s very, very common for people raised in our ever-increasingly secular society to focus on the unbridled power trips when they’re gaming. Ultimately, like any activity that doesn’t bring God into it, it is empty and flat.
But as Howard said, it doesn’t have to be that way. And done right, it can be an illuminating experience.
November 10th, 2006 at 1:02 am
Another POV which I feel should probably be addressed, although it might just be the insomnia talking:
As a gnostic (Not a Gnostic, there is a difference), I tend to feel that god (Lower-case G, again different) or gods is/are all around us, I just feel no need to place them into categories or label them.
As can be expected, I have no problem at all with either a fictional pantheistic system of gods each covering a small subset of life, one of the pantheistic religions such as Hinduism, or the dualistic Christian mythos that everything is covered by two gods, deemed, occasionally arbitrarily, good and evil (This is ignoring the lesser demons and angels that are occasionally worshipped as covering specific topics, instead focusing on the two that are most often worshipped by those believing in them). I can agree that these labels for whatever forces are present and beyond our control are just as accurate and meaningful as “chance,” “probability,” “luck,” or “fate.” I simply have no opinion on which may be correct, nor any strong desire to find out or decide. I assume I’ll find out when I die.
I live, and, through living, am with god, within god, and occasionally am god (Or god moves through me, if you prefer). This is enough. Five different people could tell me five different beings or concepts are responsible for bathing me in love and light every moment of every day, and I would agree with all of them.
November 10th, 2006 at 6:41 am
So, for the ten billionth time then, evil is a function of both action and intent.
A moral GM, runs a campaign where the players learn and test their morality. An amoral GM, results in an amoral game. And once-again the framework itself is near-neutral.
Sort of like webcomics, or SF, or trading stocks, or selling on E-Bay.
November 10th, 2006 at 7:48 am
This is an interesting discussion for a non-Christian to watch. To me, it seems obvious that a game of “let’s pretend” is harmless as long as you keep it in the game, but mc whitebread has finally explained to me, in a way I can understand as a non-Christian, why it worries some Christians. I don’t share that worry, but I now understand what the problem is for other people. Thank you!
Personally, I tailor my campaigns to my players. This time around, I have the widest spread of morals and goals I’ve seen in a party: a cleric of the goddess of mercy who is forbidden to help kill anything, a con man with a soft spot for people in need, a revenge-obsessed warrior out to destroy the Inquisition, an indiscriminate killer, a wizard who is completely amoral but considers propriety and etiquette absolutely binding, and a half-angel who just wants to enjoy himself. The resulting campaign has consisted almost entirely of moral debates, and none of the characters holds to exactly the same views as when they started. I really hope my players are learning something from this.
On a side note, between elections and Christmas, America is a very hostile place for non-Christians around this time of year. It’s nice to see Christians talking politely and rationally about a hot-button issue for them; it’s a reminder to resist the temptation to generalize the behavior of many Christians into “all Christians.”
November 10th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Alan Marsh: ApologetiX truly rocks. I am eagerly awaiting the next release “Wordplay” out soon…
I never understood the argument that rock music is evil. It just doesn’t make sense. Its like saying “spicy foods are of the devil! They are not harmonious and smooth to the tongue like all godly foods should be! Get thee behind me, tabasco!!!” God is infinitely creative, and this includes sights, tastes, textures, and sounds.
Just like I enjoy a good salsa that makes the eyes water, I enjoy crunchy guitar riffs and pounding drums. I love hip-hop music, just don’t give me empty phrases about “bling” and demeaning lyrics that objectify women in the most base fashion. That is just gratuitous.
I don’t like brussel sprouts, but I’m not going to go around and tell everyone that they are satanic demon droppings.
November 10th, 2006 at 9:25 am
You had me up until the bit about brussels sprouts. For proof of their demonic nature, I offer first that they claim to be from BRUSSELS. Little liars…
November 10th, 2006 at 9:26 am
mc whitebread, Howard – GREAT discussion. (Not that I’ve any reason to doubt that there will continue to be many more such, on who knows what topics. *grin*)
rboatright has an interesting thought there. As Pastor Rick Warren asks at http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=r_warren – “What’s in your hands?” (Watch the video to make sense of the phrase, if you don’t know it already…)
Oh, and as an agnostic, I’m not pushing a christian agenda here. *wry grin* It’s just an excellent question with respect to good, evil, and humanity.
-John
November 10th, 2006 at 9:33 am
rboatright:
I would mostly agree with you. But I would also say that some things cannot be made righteous by intent alone. You can’t make Christian porn by only using married couples and promoting it as a help for good Christians who need a little help “getting it on.” It just doesn’t work that way. The end result is unrighteous by its content alone. The same applies for gaming. If a game is based on occultic/paganistic practices (which is usually not true, no overreacting please) then I would say that it should be avoided.
Thanks for all the rational feedback. I enjoy actual dialog and not bitter, personal invective.
November 10th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
mc whitebread, I must say that this is a fascinating discussion that you’ve prompted. However, I feel that your comparison between porn and gaming is a straw man argument. (Let’s stay away from the what is art/what is porn debate.)
So, let’s take your assertion that “If a game is based on occultic/paganistic practices (which is usually not true, no overreacting please) then I would say that it should be avoided.” (I’ll avoid becoming a rhetoric geek here and breaking your sentance apart. It’s not going to help the debate. However, once this discussion is finished, I’ll be happy to break down arguments into their rhetorical components for mutual edification.)
First: what do you mean by occultic/paganistic practices — some examples to discuss would also be lovely.
Second: for my own edification, what do you mean when you say unrighteous?
November 10th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
whitebread: Let us say one sets a campaign in ancient Greece, and requires clerics of Apollo to acquire sheep entrails in order to cast divination spells. Why is this intrinsically worse than requiring clerics of Braxifor or whatever to use incense as required in the Player’s Handbook?
I am assuming that none of the players involved actually believe in Apollo or Braxifor, and no real sheep actually come to harm.
I apologize if I am misinterpreting your argument.
November 10th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Froborr: Let me take that one — if you can begin, by accepting the position that “pretending to practice occultism is to be eschewed.” You see, THAT position, right there, precludes any such imagining in any game of any kind. If you’re playing historical pagans or imaginary pagans, it makes no difference. The starting point, that hard-line interpretation of scripture… it cannot be argued around.
I choose rather to deny the validity of any global application of the hard-line interpretation, and I believe that is the stance of most Christian gamers. We don’t believe that the biblical prohibitions on witchcraft apply to works of fiction that are understood by all to be just that — fiction.
November 11th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Howard: But whitebread says that games are usually NOT “based on occultic/paganistic practices”. Most games DO involve wizards and clerics and fantasy (usually polytheistic) religions, in my experience. So I am having trouble understanding what the line is. It sounded to me like he was drawing the line between fictional and historical pagan practices, and I was questioning that distinction.
November 11th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
I can’t answer for mc whitebread, but I can give my own perspective on the question. I would not feel comfortable playing in a game of Mage: the Ascension (even though I find it a fascinating piece of world-building and consider it one of my favorite RPG settings), because it portrays a world that closely resembles the real world and yet has an underlying worldview that is fundamentally opposed to my own.
However, I have played a cleric (of Garl Glittergold) in D&D, and would not have a problem playing a cleric of Apollo in a “Mythic Greece” campaign, because it’s far enough removed from our own experience to be effectively an imaginary world. OTOH, I would feel uncomfortable playing, say, an Egyptian priest in a game of Testament.
In other words, as a Christian, I find it far more palatable to imagine a world where Christianity and the Christian God do not exist than a world where they exist alongside other religions which are portrayed as equally valid. Does that make sense?
November 11th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
Wyvern: That makes a great deal of sense, thank you. I have much the same problem with Mage, so your example worked perfectly. Thank you!
November 12th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Wow. Quite a lot of discussion about games, religion, and the nature of imagination as it pertains to the heart of man. I will try to keep up with the thread as much as my circumstances dictate. (Even if it means taking my lumps over loosely framed rhetoric…)
denubis: Howard gives you a bit of a clue as it pertains to my definition of righteousness when he describes my perspective as being relative to a “hard-line” interpretation of scripture. I unashamedly cleave to the position that the bible (assume King James, just for argument’s sake) is the word of God, is completely trustworthy, and thus is to be followed as closely as possible. When the bible says to avoid astrologers, soothsayers, diviners, etc., I believe that is clear instruction to not only not seek those people who offer those services, but also not engage in that activity myself. Now comes the tricky part. What if I’m only pretending? What if I go through the motions, act it out and such, but don’t really believe in the process or any chance of outcome? What if I’m pretending to be in a separate world where God’s rules don’t apply?
I won’t go over the pretending to be in a separate world argument, as I think I made my feelings clear in my first post. So, what about the other arguments? I think Jesus makes things very clear about the separation of imagination and action when he says that if you look at a woman and lust after her, it is the same as committing adultery. He is making it clear that God looks at the heart of man, not just the outward appearances. This is why he took the religious leaders of the time to task so hard: they followed a form of righteousness, but it didn’t go any deeper than that. They missed the point. (There were some exceptions, Nicodemus being an obvious one.)
I still enjoy good fiction, even fiction that is set outside this world. I would recommend the works of Ted Dekker wholeheartedly in this regard. Blink would be a good introduction to his work.
Again I must stress that I am not looking down my nose at any who think differently from me, even those who are Christian. I am just trying to relate my position in as cogent a fashion as possible.