A Little Dungeons & Dragons Advocacy
Posted November 7th, 2006 by Howard TaylerI need your webhounding skills, but we’ll get to that in a moment.
Twice in the last week, as I’ve been sitting at my drawing table at Dragons Keep, customers have come in asking, in essence, “what’s all the fuss about D&D?” Specifically, it seems, they want to know why other parents are dead-set against letting their children play such an insidiously dangerous game, which is obviously training them for occultism, satanism, and weekend baby-eating.
And here I thought those issues all got put to bed back in, oh, 1983. D&D is no more a training ground for occultists, satanists, and baby-eaters than American Idol is (note: I use “American Idol” as my example rather than “Survivor” because, well… the baby-eating episode of “Survivor” is going to air any day now).
Still, people have questions. As the closest thing to an actual grown-up present in the store (being in the store prevents me, by definition, from being a TRUE grown-up) it seems to fall on me to answer their questions.
While I can be fairly encyclopedic in my summonings of obscure and arcane trivia, I suspect that when Mrs. Smith tells Mrs. Jones “the guy drawing stuff at the comic book store said it’s okay because…” all of my pontificating will fall rather flat in the retelling.
So… do you know any good sites with TRULY encyclopedic advocacy for Dungeons & Dragons in specific, and Fantasy Role-Playing in general?
I’m looking for something I can summarize, synopsize, and print out — complete with links and footnotes — so that the next time someone asks the question I can say “D&D is as safe as any other activity that takes place at your kitchen table” and then hand them a nice sheet of paper that allows them to refute the absurd allegations bandied about by their ignorant and fearful neighbors.
I’ve found a little material already, but I’m sure there are things I’m missing… like perhaps an under-utilized, low-Google-ranked site that already has EXACTLY what I want, formatted and ready to go.
Failing that, send me the raw feed. On your mark, get set, roll initiative…
Explore posts in the same categories: Games, Religion, Politics
November 7th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Sci-fi writer Michael A. Stackpole has done a lot of work and research with the aim of countering these perceptions (although he deals with roleplaying in general rather than just D&D). Adding his name to your searches might be useful.
For example, [url=http://www.rpg.net/realm/critique/gama.html]this site[/url] gives a short Q&A overveiw, but I’ve read more compelling arguements.
Scott Kurtz of PvP also has a nice rant on his site about the benefits of RPGing, but I’m not sure if he deals with the occult issue directly.
November 7th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
As the above comment noted, adding Stackpole to the search terms helps — I remembered seeing an essay by him on how silly some of the claims are. Googling that got me this site, which has a nice summary.
November 7th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
I played How to Host a Murder Saturday night. It occurred to me for the first time that this is role-playing for the masses — if you have enjoyed that game, then you’ll enjoy D&D.
The difference is that D&D can be quests of good vs. evil, whereas HtHaM is a bunch of guilty crooks and adulterers deciding which one committed THIS murder.
November 7th, 2006 at 8:55 pm
http://www.theescapist.com/ is a gaming advocacy website, now largely defunct I think, but it’s got a LOT of good stuff. It is not related with the gaming magazine “The Escapist”, although that’s a really good read.
Anyways, theescapist.com has a very nice piece on how spells don’t work (either from Harry Potter or from D&D). Link is here.
(Apologies if this borks the comments; I’m not sure whether bloglines plays nice with HTML and I don’t have a preview function…)
November 7th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
http://members.tripod.com/~limsk/pulling.htm
The Pulling report is the report done by Stackpole around 1990 about the great occult investigator (linked to D&D) Patricia Pulling. It largly centered on discrediting her expertiese
She was one of the driving forces behind B.A.D.D. and the D&D is satanic crowd.
B.A.D.D. itself appears to be defunct… the badd.org website is for boaters against drunk driving. (the .com/.net are nsfw)
November 7th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Actually, Howard, I might recommend to you a countermeasure. Rather than advocate, simply show them what the fuss actually was. All you need is a copy of the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master’s Guide. That’s the one with the party of adventurers fighting an Efreet on the cover.
I have hauled it out from time to time to answer just that question. If you take the time to point out that the Efreet is the bad guy and that, it was probably a poor choice of “featured creature” for a book in the bible belt in 1979, most people generally nod and say, “Ahh, yeah. I can see people freaking out over this. And he’s not Satan? You’re sure? Okay.”
I have a copy of the 2e DMG if you want to store it in your desk. It is “well-loved” to the point of near disintegration. It falls open to page 75 or 122 every time (to-hit and treasure tables, respectively).
November 7th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
I’ve got a copy, too. I love that book. :-)
Part of the hubbub, however, was the urban legends that sprung up around a couple of suicides (as well as the fact that almost a hundred role-playing gamers have committed suicide since then). Being able to show how, statistically, gamers have a LOWER suicide rate than the age demographic that contains them is also helpful.
Oh, and it’s nice to be able to say “That’s an urban legend. This is a fact.”
November 7th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
I personally use D&D as a release for stress that I am dealing with in my life. So do several of my friends. I do not think many of us would have graduated Engineering college without D&D to keep our brains from frying.
If a child or adult is playing D&D regularly when do they have the TIME to commit atrocities against the community. The hooligans in my high school had no activities available to distract them, so they made their own fun.
For me personally, I have found that D&D has improved my group leading skills (GM) as well as tolerance of people with very different attitudes about how the world works.
I suggest D&D to parents and kids from all backgrounds.
November 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
CopperHamster: I looked at the Pulling Report, and it’s an ad hominem attack — discredit the messenger to discredit the message. Granted, it needed to be done at the time, but it’s not especially useful today. Stackpole has done other, more recent work that I think will be better suited to my needs.
CosmicChaos: I recommend it as well. In fact, more and more I think that we should be stepping away from video games and going back to the table-tops before we lose the ability to speak confidently face-to-face.
November 7th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Chalain and Howard: that’s the /1st/ edition book, and, indeed, an early one. The second edition book is just an orc or some such busting down a door. There’s also another first edition one where it’s a dude in a hood, smiling, opening a double door, with heaping piles of filthy lucre in the foreground.
Vorn
November 7th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Note before you read this one. I’m a Baha’i and a gamer. The discussion below is about the ATTACKS on gaming, not _my_ position. No flames please.
Well, if you’re going to do it, be prepared to answer the standard charges.
The best place I know of to find those is
http://athos.rutgers.edu/pub/soc.religion.christian/faq/d&d
if you don’t actually speak to those issues, then you are setting your young friends up for a fall.
In particular one of the charges is the most difficult:
David Fischer writes: “We are commanded to meditate on scripture (Joshua 1:8), think on good,healthy things (Philippians 4) and to be transformed in our thinking (Romans 12:2). It is therefore quite important what we let in or don’t let into our minds. The idea of AD & D is to role-play characters who, if they are playing according to the rules and with the stated aims of the game in mind, go around killing, casting spells, deceiving and being deceived, greedily searching for treasure, worshipping pagan gods or even demons and living for themselves. ”
In particular, in that light consider this from later in David’s charge: ” I heard one non-christian boasting of how totally evil and mercenary his character was. ”
Jeff Freeman’s well-written response in the same FAQ does _not_ effectively speak to the “you are what you play” concept. He _does_ effectively draw the parallel between actors in religious drama who play evil characters, and gamers also doing so, but (cleverly) skips over the motivation issue, that the actor isportraying a role written by others, while the gamer is MODELING the evil character in his own head, running the evil character’s software on his hardware so to speak. — There _are_ answers, but they are not trivial.
If, “Everything in our life should be pleasing to God” (2 Cor 5:9), then gamers need to answer how gaming pleases Him. It’s a challenge worth taking on, but requires considering the role of fantasy, escapism, morality, occultism if you are to “bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:15)
In terms of pro-gaming resources, I presume you’ve seen the Ontario consultant’s on Religious tolerance at http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d3.htm — which echo’s much of Freeman’s information on satanism, suicide, and crime. Their bibliography points to http://www.rpgstudies.net/ which is about as good as any single source I know of.
If your young friends are part of a _particularly_ annoying sub-group of christians, you’ll doubtless be confronted with good ol’ Chick Publications aricle on D&D. http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp Probably enough said about that.
-_ Rick
November 7th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
What about actors who play evil characters in movies? Surely Christopher Lee is darned to heck.
What about that horrible 60s band “The Grateful Dead”?
I’m not sure you can convince some of these people. You may remember that link I sent you that proved you as a Mormon are a third-level occultist helping the Antichrist gain power.;-)
November 7th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
Here’s an awesome piece which I think is perfect for your needs, Howard: an essay written by an evangelical, born-again Christian explaining why more Christians should play D&D. It was apparently written back in the early 90’s (based on his site design and references to AD&D), but it’s still relevant today.
http://mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html
November 7th, 2006 at 10:55 pm
This sanitized Hasbro/WOTC abortion has nothing of the cool, satanic-influenced, evil-inducing pleasure that produced a generation of deviants who eat babies and pitilessly rape Ford Festivas…oh…wait…nevermind, most of us grew up, have pretty decent jobs and are raising families. We’re more social and intelligent for our time spent gaming and stayed out of trouble more than our non-gaming counterparts, generally speaking. 3-E/d20 is still a horrible inheritance of the halcyon days of paleogaming, they sold our childhood, but it happens to every generation. C’est la vie.
November 7th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
I really like [url=http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/1257/parents2.html]a parent’s guide to role-playing games[/url].
The main reason some parents are dead set against letting their kids play is they truly believe D&D is like a “gateway drug” to full-fledged Satanism. They’ve never seen the game themselves, they’ve only heard of it from third-hand sources (like Jack Chick), and the descriptions they’ve heard (”you make a character, cast spells, and kill stuff”) confirm their perceptions.
The right response to many of that sort of parents is to invite them to observe a gaming session. Let them see what it’s like — what you do, and more importantly what you DON’T do, during a session. My wife hosted a game for me and 3 of my siblings at a church youth group overnighter (last new years) and a number of people who thought D&D was an “evil” game observed and were quite impressed by it. (We were, of course, playing a good party.)
The charge about “the stated aims of the game… killing, casting spells, deceiving and being deceived, greedily searching for treasure, worshipping pagan gods or even demons and living for themselves” simply dissolves when someone witnesses a gaming session where characters agonize over how to ethically deal with a goblin slaver that surrenders, or they take risks to recover the body of a rival they didn’t much like as a person, or they strive to improve the welfare of the villagers in the aftermath of the dragon strike. When it becomes clear the aim of the game is to help and protect those around, people change their tune quickly. (This is, of course, provided that’s the sort of game you play; if you play a chaotic-neutral smash and grab, you’ll find a lot of parents don’t want their kids to get involved.)
November 7th, 2006 at 11:01 pm
rboatright: What you’re providing is actually in large measure what I need to address. The best repudiation weapon I can offer in these cases is the accusation of hypocrisy: if you won’t play D&D, here are a dozen things that are MORE popular, MORE prevalent, and MORE problematic (in scriptural terms) than the game. Let’s start with “watching professional football on television…”
The hardcore, rigid-interpretation-of-scripture folks will never be converted, but their arguments lose their hold over others when it can be easily pointed out that the same argument should have you disconnecting cable and internet services *permanently.*
And if people can convince themselves that their other diversions can be handled in moderation, it is no stretch for them to similarly imagine themselves similarly moderating a game in which one player serves as an actual moderator.
So don’t worry… no flames forthcoming.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Howard, when you get your apologia together, I think we might all benefit from a link. :) Meanwhile, all I can offer is the Wiki article with its outside links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BADD
November 7th, 2006 at 11:17 pm
Oh, I’ll be posting a permanent page here as a public service. It’s not the first place people will look, but I tend to end up highly-ranked for whatever search terms show up on prominent pages of mine.
Go figure. ;-)
November 7th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
I think the best game plan is to go on the offensive and show the positives of gaming. It stretches the imagination, gives practice with storytelling, etc… It’s far more social than videogames… There are mathematical aspects to it… I know I’m personally a far better writer as a result of my roleplaying experiences.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
I got a 23 ( natural 19+4dex ) (I swear I rolled for it…)
– anyway– im just LOL’ing. I have been playing D&D for only a few months now ( say 6? ) so I had no idea things like BADD were ever around.
I thought that kind of crazy only plagued the video game industry…
November 7th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
My favorite debate for the uninformed is that D&D is just like fantasy baseball/football/etc, but for geeks instead of jocks. Or that fantasy football is a RPG for jocks, depending on who’s perspective I’m talking to.
November 7th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
Wil Wheaton has spoken at times of the way Dungeons and Dragons (and roleplaying in general) has helped him connect with his step-kids. I can’t pull up a particular entry at the moment, but it’s a thought.
November 8th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Wow. Lotta good info. I can’t add anything to the canonized body of literature. I do have a personal note and a supplemental piece of info.
I played the original D & D. My brother and I had the original books. I remember how excited we were when AD&D came out with it’s cool new spells, creates and most importantly a REAL HARD COVER BOOK! We’ve both grown up to be (fairly) normal contributing members of society. I do wish we’d saved all that original gaming material, though. That would be worth something on eBay.
The second (minor) contribution I have is Quag Keep by Andre Norton.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-8308918-0185462?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=quag+keep
Not one of her best books, but it presents D & D in a slightly different fashion. For some, it may make it more understandable.
For those, probably all here, who haven’t read it, it’s the story of a group of D & D enthusiests who get sucked into the game. Each has a gauntlet with the dice on it. It’s interesting to see how the characters reactions change when the dice start spinning for no apparent reason and they have to wonder if they just made or lost a saving throw. Written in 1976.
November 8th, 2006 at 12:40 am
A nice little nitch in the wall site is a site called The RP Site. It tries to keep everyone ballanced in power and has compelling storylines and a world that is shaped by its members.
http://z3.invisionfree.com/The_RP_site/index.php?
hope you like it
November 8th, 2006 at 12:53 am
Back when Infocom (remember them?) made the Enchanter trilogy and advertised the games in computer magazines, they had people write to them asking them to stop making them. To them, the games were evil because they handled magic _at all_.
You can’t reason with these people. They’d probably consider Cinderella demonspawn too if they were logical — but most often they’re not.
Classic fantasy role-playing is (supposed to be) basically play-acting fairytale stories. If someone’s too dense to see that, it’s probably not worthwhile to try harder.
The other, deeper issue is whether you want to show role-playing as it really is, as opposed to what you might want it to be?
Let’s be honest: A lot of RPG groups simply use the game as a medium to play out their infantile rape’n'murder fantasies. And that’s not the end of it — they actually consider themselves the good guys because their victims are “bad guys”. The D&D black&white, good vs. evil, rigid alignmentsd world view actively _encourages_ this.
The only good orc is a dead orc. And they never surrender. And even if they try to surrender, you don’t understand orcish anyway.
In 20+ years of role-playing, I have never, ever seen a PC agonize over ethical treatment of prisoners — they just never take any. And that is completely regardless of game or genre. Ofcourse, they expect to be taken prisoner instead of being killed out of hand, go figure…
I’ve found that many players prefer fantasy or apocalyptic settings precisely because there’s less control over who they can wantonly kill. Getting a murder charge for killing someone who stands in their way just does not fit into their view of a fun game.
If you have a parent who actually understands what usually happens in a typical hack’n’slash session and is against it, what are you going to do? Lie to them? Explain that orcs are inherently evil so it’s just a harmless fantasy to kill them by truckload? You probably have a better chance to float that argument with the religious crowd.
November 8th, 2006 at 1:47 am
Not about D&D specifically, but about gaming in general: http://www.play.net/dr/cservice/letter_parents.asp It’s from the web site of one of the few commercial text based games still around…it was MMORPG before such ever existed. Written by the then product manager of DragonRealms who is also, incidentally, a highly religious man himself. Indeed, he’s one of the few fundamentalist Christians who has earned both my friendship and respect.
I’m no longer affiliated with the company in any way, though I used to work for them and we parted on great terms (ok, so I still sometimes wander into the games and fool around).
November 8th, 2006 at 2:12 am
I’m 36 years old, and I’ve been playing rpgs for half my life. I can only say that it’s been good for me; roleplayers tend to have better math skills (try adding up the totals of the 5d8 that have just been rolled for damage against your character in a hurry), better all-round knowledge (depending, of course, on the games you play) and actually have friends (aka the people with whom they game).
I can’t really improve on the sites given above, unless no-one has yet pointed out the extremely humourous debunking of Jack Chick’s work ( http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/ ). However, once upon a time, I was cornered by a fundamental Christian and challenged to prove that D&D was not harmful. I stated that it was less harmful than the Christian church (I happen to be a Christian, so I can say this). This caused some consternation, and I was told to prove it. I said, “Sure. There are dozens of deaths per year all around the world, all directly connected to the religion of the killer or the victim. If there were that many deaths of roleplayers, there’d be no-one left to play with.”
“But that’s people taking religion the wrong way!”
“And you think you aren’t taking roleplaying the wrong way?”
Game, set and match.
November 8th, 2006 at 2:47 am
There are a couple of other RPG authors who I found had written pieces on this topic a while back.
Tracy Hickman has some thoughts online at his website - http://www.trhickman.com/ - the name should be familiar to D&D players of the 80’s and 90’s - he co-wrote the original Ravenloft and the original Dragonlance.
Deep links to get to articles that may be of interest:
http://www.trhickman.com/Faith.html#anchor180833
and the referenced essay:
http://www.trhickman.com/Intel/Essays/Ethic1.html - ”
Ethics in Fantasy: Morality and D&D
Part 1: That Evil Game!
This is the first article in a series of three
dealing with role playing games and the Christian perspective.”
Aquela.com is the personal website of James Wyatt, RPG designer, and a former United Methodist minister - while it can be difficult to find content on his site, I bookmarked
http://aquela.com/roleplaying/r&r/index.html#debate and the first link from there references a few books that may be of interest.
Hope the above may be of help.
November 8th, 2006 at 3:50 am
First time poster here, so let’s have a go…
To start off with, DarthParadox. Wil Wheaton? Dear gawd, no! Wesley Crusher as an example of a gamer will doom us all!
How about a little argument ad absurdum? Show the side of the nutjobs that are the whole reason that anybody thinks D&D is evil:
http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/dnd.asp
http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
http://www.chick.com/articles/frpg.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/204/0204_10.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp
Basically, people hear tidbits of the absurdity without seeing the original. It gets retold again and again, often filtered as it goes from the more insane to the less insane. This whole idiotic process is the “opposition”. The fanatics who think that just the fantasy play in a fantasy world is the “devil tempting us”. These are the people who say harry potter is teaching kids the occult. The best refutation of them is to show them the game, and then show them the people who are making the claims.
Then, yes, show them the actual D&D books. Regardless of edition. Let them compare the myths about D&D (and hey, this works for harry potter too. It’s not like anybody who’s actually read harry potter thinks there’s any real semblance to the occult in there) to the reality. The worst I can see anyone with an ounce of reason saying is “People actually do this for *fun*?! I’m confused just trying to figure out how to make a character.” The remainder are the types who don’t celebrate birthdays because the bible didn’t say we should celebrate them. And even a few of those could be taken care of by pointing out that there are semi-official adaptations of christianity into D&D out there that use biblical demons and angels instead of the standard semi-pagan pantheons.
November 8th, 2006 at 5:58 am
I found this one:
http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html
via RHJunior’s blog.
November 8th, 2006 at 6:19 am
it should be noted that i am strongly netral on this issue
considering that i rarely have acces to my data banks when this kind of conversation starts up i prefer to use a canned argument.
generaly i note that i have actualy played the game and have some specific knowlage of the game. then i determin there direct knowlege of the situation. generaly this is advantageous in determaning what exactly needs to be discussed. (frequently specific missinformation can be rapidly delt with)
Then i generaly describe the game rather simply as a structure of rules alowing you to do things in a imaganary world. and that this effectively means that the game, like life is what you make of it.
ocasionaly it seems apropriate to note that i have encountared satanic versions of monopaly. instead of dollars they where souls and the goal of the game was to present the most souls to their demonic overlored.
so yeah, in a game where there are rules for doing most anything you want to there will be someone who does incorparate potentialy and factualy harmfull concepts in the game. but the game itself is not inherently evil. it just can be if you really really want it to. but if you cant do that with every thing else, whell then you just arn’t very creative, or intelegent….
November 8th, 2006 at 6:54 am
For many people a little leery about the game, merely mentioning that it is owned by Hasbro is enough to make them reconsider their ‘devil’ impressions. I mean it’s Hasbro, for heaven’s sake — the company that is synonomous with cute cuddly non-evil toys for generations. ;-)
November 8th, 2006 at 7:07 am
Hope these might be of some use(my comments after the - ):
http://www.branya.com/why.htm -Just a short thing on why this chap thinks RP is good
http://inncubus.livejournal.com/149234.html -Some ideas I’ve had in the general area.
http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html
http://www.fansforchrist.org/new/articles/article03a.htm
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Dungeon/1257/parents2.html -looks like exactly what you’re after.
November 8th, 2006 at 7:31 am
maxxon: EVERY RPG group I’ve played with in the last year (there have been 4) has troubled themselves with ethical treatment of prisoners. Obviously this is a YMMV thing.
November 8th, 2006 at 7:49 am
I happened across this link this morning: www.kismetrose.com/dnd/TheControversy.html
The article itself is mediocre, but it does have links to other articles at the bottom (showing both sides othe argument).
November 8th, 2006 at 7:54 am
I’ve read for years and years. And rolled dice for twice as long it seems. lol
Hopefully, nobody has beat me to these links. I just feel that these two examples provide a nearly unbiased presentation of the scene starting from B.A.D.D. and a comprehensive breakdown and dissertation of the effect of role playing on the sub-cultrure.
This first set is a few MIT Professors/Grads/Undergrads showing and teaching how to use role playing in classroom settings. MIT should sway quite a few of your detractors.
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327809jls0702_1
And I believe this next one is a thesis (though not specifically stated). It details a very well constructed view of how RPGs - especially D&D - its impact on society, its impact on those who participate, suicide rates, and an indepth look into the suicide case that started the whole phenomenon against D&D. I don’t want to spoil anything but it’s quite a good read.
http://www.usask.ca/relst/jrpc/art9-roleplaying.html
Don’t roll a natural one on Schlock. ;)
-Shoe
November 8th, 2006 at 7:57 am
Quingyar: No, it plauges every geek oriented structure. First it was the Comics Code, then D&D, then Video Games. If it wasn’t for the fact that the 50’s made engineering so fashionable, I’m sure there’d have been a coalition against protractors and slide rules.
-Shoe
November 8th, 2006 at 8:01 am
Scott Kurtz of PVP fame wrote ‘Five reasons why you should let your kids play D&D’. I know he is another comic-artist and writer but he did make some very good points…
http://www.pvponline.com/rants_dd.php3
November 8th, 2006 at 8:04 am
Pulling Report: True. I havn’t actually dug into that sort of thing in years, so that’s the only thing I could remember to go after. Hope you find what you are looking for.
November 8th, 2006 at 8:30 am
Chick just scares me… That my basic religion could spawn someone so darn hateful just bugs me…
Anyways… As occationally the eldest in a group (As Christopher Lloyd said in ‘Camp Nowhere’: “I’m an adult… Technically…), when some young bast… *cough* player is concered over what his mom would say should she find out he’s actually playing a role playing game and not doing whatever he’s saying he does when he games, I tell them to come clean…
First off, hiding what you’re doing isn’t helping anyone, you’ll get caught lying, and THEN see where we are. I don’t need a civil suit for corrupting you, so tell the truth. I then tell them that they should have mom (or dad) come stop by one night for game… I make sure no one’s wearing there Co0ed Naked shirts, the GWAR is off my iPod playlist, and the places is a lil cleaner than normal. Mom comes over, I offer her a soda of her choosing (I pick of a variety of 6-packs, just to be safe), and we all talk about what we’re doing, and would she like to sit in? Watch us a little? If she says yes, we start game…
15 minutes into it mom is asking a LOT of questions… We’ve suspended game (it was gonna be a blow off night anyways, we all knew it), and are all trying to explain what’s going on, why this, and why-not that…
We explain that usually the evil people are the bad guys, and we’re trying to stop them, and that often what sounds bad at first (MAGIKZZ!!) are just… Well, it’s just silly… Read some spell descriptions, for crying out loud… And then explain the spell casting SYSTEM… Memorized spells? What?
Often that alone is enough of a explanation, and the seeing that we aren’;t really evil people (I actually come across as quite normal in person) that mom is ok with it…
One mom even JOINED… Which was cool for everyone but her son… lol
November 8th, 2006 at 8:37 am
I would say that because of RPG’s that I have learned to be more understanding of others, even when I disagree with them.
Hey, a great RPG comic that addresses another point of view:
http://goblinscomic.com/ - Looks at PC’s from the goblin point of view.
November 8th, 2006 at 8:55 am
I am a DM myself. I used to host the Universtiy of Wisconsin - Waukesha D&D group. We meet every Monday after classes. I had no trouble finding a faculty sponcer for it the math department and one computer professor probibly would have fought for it.
I am a christian (Mormon) and I have to say that as a whole if there is one thing I can understand it’s having things misconstrued and people making false acusations about things.
I think though the best thing to do is find a mature, responcible group with a mature DM. Even in my “break down the door” games clerics, and Palidans know to watch their morality. I have been more than willing to slap them with the “You no longer have that ability” effect and turn a cleric into shlub in there seconds flat for even not speaking against evil acts in the party members may wish to commit.
I think though the best way is show not tell. Keep at your side a few of the debunk links, copies of the book to show parents. Let them see the game being played. Let them talk to the players, the DM, and encourage them to do so.
In 30 years of D&D Vin Deseil points himself out, and I believe other celerberties who also play(ed) D&D. If possible let them see and handel that book.
My mother was rather Anti-D&D her self but has softened up to it. She was actualy more alarmed by a magic item from the DMG that could use a deck of tarrot cards, she had just glanced at the chart not at the item description. When i had her read that she relaxed.
November 8th, 2006 at 8:58 am
I’m mostly repeating other advise, but I can suggest that you check out the Christian Gamers Guild at http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/ (they also maintain a Yahoo group). Much of the information there will mirror what you get from http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/confess.html, since M. Joseph Young is (or has been) an active member of the CCG.
The only caution I would give you is that this group does deliberately distinguish themselves from Later Day Saints, so some of the information there may be bothersome to members of the LDS church.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Here’s a great example of one of Wil Wheaton’s entries about how D&D helped him relate to his stepkids: http://www.wilwheaton.net/2004/02/breath_of_life.php
Wil’s actually a good writer, I’ve become pretty impressed with him through reading his blog. Remember, actor != character he plays. :)
November 8th, 2006 at 9:24 am
That’s funny, except for the baby-eating part, “obviously training them for occultism, satanism, and weekend baby-eating.” sounds like something my parents might have said to me while I was growing up.
I’ve never played D&D, and though I would love to, I don’t really have the time, nor do I know anyone that I could play with. Maybe I should start hanging out at Dragon’s Keep.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:29 am
Ryanlb: joooiiin usssssss…. (cue spooky music)
November 8th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Here’s a site that may be helpful for conservative Chruch types (who are most likely to object to D&D
http://www.youthspecialties.com/articles/topics/culture/roleplaying.php
November 8th, 2006 at 10:16 am
When reading this blog-entry and some of the comments it somehow reminded me of that one very old (christian) comic that discredits roleplaying in extremes (if you can remember: there are others with evolution vs. creationism and more out there .. it was in the same style).
To come back to the point why I’m writing: Since i could not find anything with Google i started up Altavista (Yes it’s still there … use it) .. but no match for the comic here either :( Anyway, at least i found quite some links that are on-topic with Altavista. Here are two of them:
“Frequently Asked Questions by Christians about Role-playing Games
By Lynette R. F. Cowper, M. Joseph Young, Paul Cardwell, and other members of the Christian Gamers Guild”
http://www.geocities.com/christian_gamers_guild/chaplain/cfaq.html
Quite interesting discussion about “Fantasy Roleplaying” in “The Christian Chapel” forum:
http://www.christianchapel.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9206
Especially the first one might be worth a visit. I must admit that i didn’t read it _all_ yet, so just ignore it if it’s too biased in one or the other way.
Werner
November 8th, 2006 at 10:25 am
Ryanlb: there are quite a few places online that simulate table-top games. (Note, I’m not talking about computer mediated ones, but real table-top with humans on both ends) The site I like is RPGnation (Why do I have a feeling the blog is going to eat that url?) The cool thing about forum based is that they can accept pretty much any time commitment.
There are quite a few IRC based role playing games, though those tend to suffer due to slow-typing speed.
If you contact me over gtalk (or aim) I’ll be happy to steer you in the right direction. In any event, online table-top RPGs are a pale substitute to real ones, but they’re much more accomidating w.r.t. time.
November 8th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Ok, sorry for re-posting the geocities link, i overlooked that it has been mentioned before :)
Werner
November 8th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
maxxon, I’m fairly new to the D&D world, but in both of the groups I’ve been a part of, ethical treatment of prisoners has been a major part of the role-play. We’ve had party members protect evil prisoners from other party members, we’ve had the previously-protective party member kill surrendered slavers, we’ve had arguments and changing (character) attitudes about what to do when an enemy gives up, we’ve had characters seek enlightenment and instruction on the issue, and so on. We’ve had conversations about justice, punishment for enemies’ evil past actions, reformation, and “what’s the right thing to do here, in the spur of the moment?” It’s been a great source of roleplaying tension, and a great source of deep ethical discussion.
If your gaming sessions don’t go that way — if you play a “typical hack’n’slash” style where you kill all the evil stuff and play out infantile rape-and-murder fantasies and never question it — and someone’s parents understand and are against it, their kids don’t belong in your gaming session. You have no reason to convince them otherwise. But, their kids might belong in my gaming session or Howard’s gaming session. (In this way, D&D is not unlike television — there are some houses I would never let my future kids visit and watch TV, and other houses I would.)
November 8th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Howard wrote: The best repudiation weapon I can offer in these cases is the accusation of hypocrisy: if you won’t play D&D, here are a dozen things that are MORE popular, MORE prevalent, and MORE problematic (in scriptural terms) than the game. Let’s start with “watching professional football on television…”
======
Yeah, but again, you slip past the point of the argument. Watching football is both slothful, and by your support of the team, you encourage THEIR immorality. Nodnod.
But you’ve slid past the key charge that is, in fact, the key of Fischer’s complaint, and of Chick Publishing’s Schnoebelen’s argument that D&D and other RPG’s _model_ evil behavior. That the person is not a passive by-stander, but rather a participant in the actions which are themselves essentially sinful.
While, of course, the game is not a sin, the repetition of pretending evil action, and modeling witchcraft and other sinful actions leads to a predilection for such action in the real world. This is distinct from the passive consumptive sins of listening to rock music or watching pro football or professional Wrestling, and approaches more the ACTIVE sins of PLAYING rock music or BEING a pro wrestler. :-)
I’m not sure that the defence of hypocracy is the correct path. Rather, I would argue that RPG’s offer a youth the opporunity to test their ethical mettle in a complex forum which is somewhat safer than the real world.
What to do when a crack dealer is shot in front of you is an ethical dilemma few will be exposed to, but slicing that ethical decision is the sort of thing that happens a LOT in a D&D game. It is an fantasy environment which is intentionally difficult and complex, and provides the ground work for a mind which is flexible and able to handle complex decisions. RPG’s are low-risk, high reward.
I take the direct stand against Fischer and Schnoebelen then, that rather than modeling EVIL behaviour, RPG’s provide a young person with the opportunity to develop the habits of, and modelling moral and just behavior.
-_ Rick
November 8th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
*sighs* Hokay. See, this is why CAR-PGa needs a better web presence.
CAR-PGa is the Committee for the Advancement of Role-Playing Games. It’s an international group, although with very few overseas members. It was founded in 1982 (or thereabouts; I don’t know the exact date) in response to a particularly egregious attack and has been the leading (read: only) advocacy group since.
Besides responding to specific attacks, working on areas of concern (e.g., finding out which state prison systems still ban RPGs and seeing what we can do to change that), and generally trying to help out, the Committee maintains a large library of articles that mention RPGs, research regarding RPGs or gamers, attacks on RPGs (we’ve got some of Pulling’s B.A.D.D. stuff, if you’re interested), responses to attacks (including the sort of stuff you’re looking for), the text of relevant court decisions, and what facts we’ve been able to come up with in cases in which RPGs have been blamed for a crime or accident. The full list of the library’s contents are rather long, but the Chair is good at helping someone find what they need.
In addition to a monthly newsletter, CAR-PGa has an unofficial website at http://www.theescapist.com/carpga.htm and an official e-mail mailing list at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/car-pga/ (the theescapist.com website is run by one of our members). There are no membership dues except “work for the cause.”
Howard: Unfortunately, I cannot provide you with evidence that the suicide rate among gamers is lower than that among the rest of the population. To the best of my knowledge, that simply isn’t true. What you are looking for is:
Carter, Robert, and Lester, David. (1998, February). Personalities of players of Dungeons & Dragons. Psychological Reports, 82(1), 182. (1 page)
In that, the suicide rate is given as equivalent to the general population. CAR-PGa has that in its files, although you could probably get a copy from your nearest academic library. CAR-PGa also has copies of personal communications to members from the Chief, Intentional Injuries Section, Centers for Disease Control, and a mental health consultant, Health & Welfare Canada, stating that there is no evidence of a game/suicide connection. There may be other literature; that’s just from the short list of handy references in the CAR-PGa library.
If you wish to get in contact with me privately, I’d be happy to get copies of whatever literature you need sent to you. (E-mail username: crazydreamer, domain name: crazydreams.org; occasionally it eats things, so send a second time if I don’t get back to you within a couple days.) Alternatively, you can contact the Chair yourself at CAR-PGa, 1127 Cedar, Bonham, TX 75418, or on the e-mail list mentioned above.
In service,
M. Alan Thomas II
Regional Director (Region 2), CAR-PGa
P.S. B.A.D.D. disbanded years ago, and Pulling has died of cancer, may she rest in peace.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
I once had a Paranoia character last 45 minutes:-D
I switched to that when after ten years of D&D I hadn’t been invited to a single virgin sacrifice. What kind of wussy occultism doesn’t sacrifice virgins? Or at least goats?
I sacrificed a chicken tonight. Lightly breaded with a honey glaze. And it was goooood.
November 8th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
MadMike: And the odd thing is that, at least in MY experience with D&D, there was no shortage of virgins around.
November 8th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Chiming in late.
As a Christian who has been Southern Baptist most of my life, I’ve run into this problem a few times. Usually as a counter argument I present myself: Happily married, father of one, author of Christian devotional materials, videos and dramas as well as church curriculum products (including credits for Max Lucado), and former summer missionary in college (during my biggest D&D days). I then mention that my D&D buddies from high school became surgeons (two of them), a dentist, a computer consultant and university instructor, a naval officer, a philosophy professor, a minister, a Wal-Mart SuperCenter manager, and three engineers. And lastly I say, “You know, on Friday and Saturday nights when I was a teen, my parents knew exactly where I was— either in our family room or a friend’s— playing a game and eating pizza and drinking Coca-cola. But the other parents of teens in town actually had no idea where their kids were or what they were doing. But I did, because I heard them talk about it at school: drinking alcohol, smoking pot and breaking 9 out of 10 Commandments. You think maybe their folks should have been a little less concerned about saving them from D&D and more concerned about what they did instead?” This is usually met by stunned silence.
— Howard
P.S. For a great webcomic take on D&D, check out “The DM of the Ring.” I don’t have the link handy, but Google is your friend!
November 9th, 2006 at 12:16 am
For the record, I don’t like hack’n’slash. But a lot of people do, including many I used to play with.
If you look at classic D&D, it’s not satanistic any more than Cinderella is. But it _is_ fundamentally about killing people and taking their stuff. Heck, that’s the only way to advance in the game!
All the justifications are just sugar-coating on top of that fundamental truth.
(But then again, the same is true for most non-sports computer games)
Naturally the DM can run a romantic comedy with D&D if he really wants to (and the players let him, this is an important point), but if you honestly look into what kind of play the classic D&D expects and supports in its rules, there’s only one answer…
Look into the meta-RPG Power Kill if you’re interested in this:
http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_2108.html
As for the concerned parents, you can always argue that if they don’t let their kids play D&D, the young ones will download F.A.T.A.L. off the net and play that…
http://atrocities.primaryerror.net/fatal.html
November 9th, 2006 at 12:59 am
Another entry late to the game.
Disclaimer: I’ve only played a short-lived PBEM campaign of D&D. In my time my problem with my parents was Warhammer 40K, which is in fact quite a bit more questionable than D&D (at least before they introduced those goody-two-shoes Tau ;).
I love Parzival/Howard’s account, although it does seem a bit simplistic IMO.
I think D&D, and roleplaying in general, are media with a lot of power to influence the players for good or evil. In that sense, the game affords allowing the players to model good OR evil behaviour, with consequences for either. Much of this power - not all, but a great deal - is vested in the hands of the GM, or DM as the case may be, since he/she controls the consequences of many of the players’ actions. An inexperienced or just-plain-bad GM is a grave danger, not just to the playability of the game, but to the moral content thereof.
And in the same vein, a DM who knowingly runs an evil campaign where the players all acknowledge that their characters are evil is not nearly as dangerous or insidious as a DM who tries to run a good campaign but ends up handing out loot, honour, etc. for e.g. slaughtering orcish civilians and impaling their children on pikes.
Of course, morally-upstanding players in their right minds are likely to be able to tell if the DM is doing something dangerous, but they don’t have as much power to influence the moral landscape of their game - short of walking out. (Insight: If the DM tempts the players to evil and they decide collectively not to give in, isn’t that kind of a learning moment too?)
On the flip side, a lot of hack-and-slash campaigns tend to come to a point where the players don’t connect the game to reality at all, but rather to just pushing numbers around. I’m not quite convinced that those campaigns are necessarily bad; they’re amoral in much the same way that many CRPGs are, though.
I think that parents need to know just how much power the DM holds to help the players learn stuff, and then they need to come to a decision on whether any given DM is trustworthy. The game itself is pretty much irrelevant.
November 9th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Parzival, I’m almost scared to ask…which was the one Commandment them other kids WEREN’T breaking?
November 9th, 2006 at 8:02 am
the 6th. Murder.
November 10th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Wallyz is correct.
Okay, I do admit it was an exaggeration: I seriously doubt any of them were intentionally worshipping other gods, and there probably wasn’t much opportunity for perjury (unless “lying to mom and dad” counts as “bearing false witness”), but for the rest…
November 21st, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Just a note regarding The Escapist (www.theescapist.com) - it is in fact very NOT defunct, and just celebrated its 10th anniversary last December. In fact, I’ve been quite active in adding new projects to the site, including Tell Me About Your Character (an almost-weekly column of interviews with everyday gamers), the Young Person’s Adventure League (a project devoted to getting kids involved in gaming), and a podcast called Square One with game designer Sam Chupp, aimed at helping new gamers get into the hobby. I also have a project in the works - Reading, Writing, and Roleplaying - devoted to using roleplaying as an educational tool.
The FAQ pages for the main site (http://www.theescapist.com/basic_gaming_faq.htm) and the Young Person’s project (http://www.theescapist.com/ypal/faq.htm) are written with concerned newcomers in mind. They’re not very printable, though… might have to work up some PDF versions for that very purpose this weekend, now that you’ve made me think of it.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:27 am
Thanks to Alan Thomas (Crazydreamer) for alerting me to this site.
Carpga was founded in 1987 following Geralo Rivera’s hatchet job on Entertainment Tonight, Games That Kill. You can join, as Alan mentioned, quickest by going to theescapist.com/carpga and sending the filled-out membership form to me at carpgachair [at] yahoo [dot] com. Yes, I am chair of this network of researchers which currently operate in eight countries. I also maintain the archives, so specific questions should be sent to me for fastest response.
Dues are indeed “documented work for the cause”, but we also have a monthly Newsletter which costs $12.00 per year US or $13.50 elsewhere.
The “lower suicide rate” line comes from the peak of the organized anti-gaming efforts in the late 1980’s which claimed that RPG
caused 120 gamer deaths by suicide - figure which never increased after 1984 except for one claim of 124 by Thomas Radecki in a radio debate with Mike Stackpole.
Our examination of the newspapers, etc. cited in some 80 of those cases (they stopped citing once we started refuting) showed that only a few could be documented as gamers, most were unable to be determined, and a sizable minority were documented non-gamers. The basis seemed to be that if RPG and a suicide (or other crime) were mentioned in the same article, even if unrelated, it counted as RPG related.
Compared to the baseline of the ages covered, their “proof” was 1/500 the baseline rate. Since RPG requires imaginative solutions to problems within a framework of rules, it should not be surprising that gamers have a lower rate. However, it can be argued (with validity, I believe) that it is not that RPG prevents suicide, but rather attracts those less likely to be suicides in the first place, although RPG can further the “imaginative solutions within a framework of rules” ability.
Incidentally, our archives currently fill four four-drawer filing cabinets, about 15 feet of bookshelves, and a bunch of audio and video cassettes, plus several sympathetic non-member scholars with “big names” in their fields, as well as our own members, about half of whom have masters and doctorate degrees and the rest have batchelors (or their nation’s equivalent) or are currently working on it. (We could use some high school students!)
If anyone on this list knows how to get a web page at little or no cost, we would particularly like to hear from you.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:41 am
Paul — email me and I’ll help out on the web hosting front. I’m pretty sure I can sponsor a Wordpress installation and robust webhost for nothing more than a permanent “thank you” link on the front page.